The Subjectiveness and Objectiveness of Modesty
I went to a very conservative Christian highschool, and each year we had an annual tradition (yes, that phrase is redundant; Sue me) – Beach day. At the end of each year, the entire school took a “field trip” to the beach, to do whatever we wanted. But, there was a dress code. We were told that we represented Christ, and we had to dress accordingly. This made perfect sense.
Every year, several days before the trip, we were all addressed on what bathing suits were acceptable. Males had virtually no restrictions – the only thing we couldn’t wear were Speedos. Regular swimming trunks were perfectly acceptable, and shirts were not required.
As for the girls, things were different. No stomach was allowed to be shown, so one-piece suits were recommended, but “tankini’s” – the variety that are technically two piece but do not show stomach (but you all knew that already, probably) – were also allowed. Because there were many students of many ages being spoken to, the word “cleavage” was not said, but it was an unspoken rule that there should be little to none.
Do I have anything against any of these rules? No – not at all. But I do find them unique. Why?
It all comes down to the fact that the majority of modesty is not objective, but subjective. What do I mean by this?
For review: My Mac’s dictionary defines ‘objective’ as “not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing”. A great example of some objective thinking would be when an official decides if a homerun is a homerun: It’s not that debatable. Either it is or it isn’t. You can discuss it as much as you like, but it is what it is. There is no middle ground.
Something subjective, however, is “based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions”. For instance, the judging of figure skating is extremely subjective. One official may watch a routine, and determine it to be a 7.3, while another may see it as 8.6.
So what is subjective and objective in modesty?
Well, there are some very basic body parts that we all, as a society, have deemed inappropriate to show. I don’t need to spell them out for you, you already know them. This is the “objective” realm of modesty. But, there are some regions of the body that are open to discussion for many people. Some think it is OK for women to show their entire stomachs and entire backs. Others do not. This is very subjective.
My thinking brought four different thoughts together: Objective Modesty, Subjective Modesty , the World’s views of what is subjective and objective in modesty, and what my School’s thoughts were on modesty. They all came together, and formed one large question in my mind.
Please, before I ask the following question, understand this: I’m not disagreeing with what we see as basic modesty. I agree 100% with the decisions my school gave. I am purely asking the following question to inspire thought and discussion:
Why is it modest for guys to show off their entire bare chest, but not modest for women to do the same? Is it because women have more “assets” in that area? Or is it because of the male mind? Or both? Or is it something else?
Why?
Foy Lyndström
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Best food for thought I’ve read in a while, Foy. Thanks.
When I was a little girl and hadn’t yet realized that breasts were sexual in nature, I asked my mother the same question. I always figured that modesty involved covering whatever body parts were different than the other gender – it was okay for me to change clothes in the same room as my mom but not my dad because we had the same parts. So I understood that women needed to cover up their chests, but I thought it was simply because they were different than men’s. I asked her why men didn’t need to cover up since their chests are different than women’s. (This led to the basics of the birds and the bees talk…) But either way, I think my reasoning as a little girl wasn’t too far off. Men are stereotypically the more visual of the two sexes, but that doesn’t mean women don’t have eyes. Ignoring an attractive man at the beach is tough to do – really tough to do. Even a lot of athletic wear is a stumbling block. It’s a good thing for me that sweat is a huge turnoff for me – the gym is typically safe for my eyes because a man who’s worked out and is sweaty is gross to me and not someone I’d lust after.
Anna Graces last blog post..A View from the Summit
Actually, I don’t think men should expose their chests. Why is this okay? My husband and I have had MANY conversations about this and I have tried to convince to wear a t-shirt, but he won’t. He is a godly man, he just disagrees with me on this point.
Anyway, great article. I don’t like the whole “one piece” thing. One piece bathing suits can be much more seductive than a two piece with a longer top and shorts. If you wear a one piece, it should be with shorts – not butt huggers either! :)
I grew up in a family that went to the beach EVERY year and with an older brother and a married sister, there were plenty of men in the family who headed out to the water bare chested. In my church youth group, we had swimming parties and the rules for dress there were pretty much identical to what Foy described. So, it was totally normal to me as a child and teenage. BUT, ( you had to know that was coming…) as an adult I have come to find that I find being bare chested as a man as completely unacceptable as a bare chested lady. It’s an invitation no matter what your gender. It welcomes the opposite gender to peruse and take in a part of your body that you would never expose on a Sunday morning at church. This transition took some time for me – I didn’t quite understand at first why I didn’t approve. But with time came clarity and I am fully persuaded that a man’s chest should be covered with the same degree of modesty as a woman’s. I’d love to hear what more people think on this issue!!! P.S. My husband and I have totally abandoned visiting beaches. Our whole family vacations to other locations now. Even if we dress modestly, we have to stare at people who don’t… bummer. But I’d rather live holy!
ilivetoworships last blog post..Breaking In
I’ve added a forum topic on whether there’s any way to maintain purity or modesty on beaches– it is an interesting topic.
I’m uncomfortable walking around shirtless– always have been. Kids, however, don’t seem to mind any degree of immodesty.
I’ve felt the same way M. Even at a young age, i’ve felt very awkward without a shirt. Whenever I’ve gone swimming, I’ve always worn one. Sometimes I get teased about it, but one time during a class trip, the girls sincerely applauded me for wearing a shirt (they were Christians, and found *most* shirtless guys disgusting.
I know that in some foreign cultures it’s ok for both sexes to go topless– and I can mostly understand men who were working out in the sun doing it. Now it’s more about objectification and expectation than anything.
[name redacted], I agree about being sure your bottom half is modest, too. I’ve always wondered about gymnasts, why their leotards have long arms but no legs – and the cuts of their leotards, if they didn’t have athletic tape,the wedgies would be unbearable…
Isn’t it interesting that usually when a man wears a shirt to the beach he’s assumed to be insecure with his body? I know that’s why my brother always wore shirts as a teenager. Rarely do the secular sides of ourselves stop and think there may have been a higher motivation.
And yes, MIn, with topless cultures, a lot of it comes down to forbiddenness. Anything you see on a regular basis tends to lose its intrigue after a while. It’s a very interesting psychological study because in a lot of Muslim cultures, seeing a woman’s arms or lips is much too sensual to be an everyday occurance.
Anna Graces last blog post..A View from the Summit
I go both ways on this subject… I personally have never thought of it as a big deal to see a guy without his shirt on but I do understand the people questioning why is this ok for men but not women? Sure our minds are wired a bit different but that doesn’t need to become an excuse for guys to just wear whatever they want with no regard for modesty.
And one thing I want to just mention, is that unless a guy is wearing a shirt specifically designed for swimming, wearing a wet t-shirt is just as distracting as seeing him bare chested. For me at least.
arielles last blog post..Metric
I have never been comfortable around half naked men. It didn’t matter if they were fit or not, either its a struggle with repulsion, or its lust trying to sneak in. My brothers wear either a swim/rash guard or a t-shirt. (note: state parks and pools in NY forbid the wearing of “non-swim” attire) I don’t struggle with a tank top style swim/rash guard on a guy, just wear some kind of shirt. Please, out of respect for your self, for modesty(God), and for the women you will be around, pay attention to the fact that with no shirt on, you are half naked!
Wow! Interesting comments! I have to agree that though men are more “visual” that doesn’t mean that women are not at all. To me seeing a guy without a shirt on is either repulsive or attractive. Sometimes it’s both. (I’m not sure why, so please don’t ask me to explain that.) Why is it that guys think they can go around showing off their bodies while telling females they need to cover up more?
I’m glad for this post that address modesty on men.
I know this wasn’t the point of the article, but I’ve come to be of the opinion that “mixed bathing” (lol… guys and girls swimming together) is generally an immodest activity and should be mostly avoided. As Arielle points out, most street clothes become extremely immodest when wet, and it is difficult and expensive to find modest clothing made of materials appropriate for swimming(that meet my standards). Not to mention, nearly every “cover up” thing I’ve ever worn floats up to my armpits and sometimes even comes up over my head while swimming! Even if I’m wearing shorts that still puts me in a very immodest situation!
Onto the topic at hand… I was raised by my father to believe that if you’re going to live by certain standards, you should uphold those standards regardless of the season or geographic location.
My question is, if guys are truly able to “turn off” their tendency to be aroused visually simply because they’ve changed locations (i.e. went from the office to the beach), then why should girls EVER worry about dressing modestly? If guys have that much control and choice in the matter, they should always carry the burden of responsibility for their purity.
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You’re right, Reborn, if you could just switch it off, then it should be all the guy’s problem to switch it off all the time.
I guess I would ask the question, is the problem with modesty and swimwear in the water or out of the water? I would tend to think it’s sunbathing I find more of a problem– I can’t see suits in the water (especially at a lake)– so is there room for modesty and mixed bathing it people make sure to cover themselves quickly?
Should one ever tan?
No, one shouldn’t tan. Tanning is bad for your skin. If you want to be tan, fake-bake. Same effect, less skin damage. :)
VERY good question! I don’t think guys should show it off any more than the girls. It doesn’t seem very fair to require that the girls be modest, but not the guys. Girls can struggle visually as well. Shirtless guy who looks gross, just looks…gross. But a well-built young man can indeed be a temptation to a woman.
#Feb2011NCARating
I go both ways on this. Technically, guys could be held to the same standards as girls, but then this could cause another problem. I’m used to seeing guys swimming in just their trunks, and for the most part it doesn’t bother me. If a guy goes swimming with his shirt/rash-guard on, it draws more attention to himself. Just a thought. My mind seems to be changing on things of this nature right now, so my views may be different come 2 more months.
Having just been at a water park on Monday, I can say that mostly, when I saw guys without shirts, it was either well toned or "beached whale". Mostly, they’d been better off with a shirt on.